M1867, M1867/96 & M1867/97 Danish Remingtons

(Bagladeriffel m/1867)

Please Note:  This site is best viewed on a desktop, laptop or tablet computer. We have made every effort to make this site friendly to cellphone users, but it's really designed to be viewed with a larger screen.  Thank you.

IMG_8725.JPG

M1867 Remington-built Danish rifle converted to M1867/97 Danish Remington rifle

IMG_2916.jpg

M1867 Danish-built Remington converted to M1867/96 Danish Remington rifle

HISTORICAL CONTEXT

  Denmark is a small country (slightly smaller than the US states of Vermont and New Hampshire combined) situated on the Jutland peninsula, in Northern Europe, with the North Sea to the west and the Baltic Sea to the east.  It is surrounded by water except for its 42-mile southern boundary with Germany, and includes some 500 nearby islands, of which only 100 or so are inhabited.  It was the Danish Vikings, not Norwegians, who between 800-1000 A.D. conquered much of England.

 

   Although Denmark acquired substantial territorial possessions during its history, including uniting with Norway and Sweden under Danish rule in the late 1300s, Denmark was forced to give Norway to an independent Sweden at the end of the Napoleonic Wars and, with that loss, most of its empire was gone.

 

   In the 1830s and 1840s the desire for a liberal constitution spread throughout the populations of Denmark as well as its Schleswig-Holstein dependencies (Schleswig was a Danish dependency and Holstein a German dependency, both ruled by Denmark).  Open revolt broke out in 1848 in Holstein and southern Schleswig.  Prussia, and later Austria, entered the conflict on the side of the rebels.  After two separate wars (1848-1850, and again in 1864), Denmark was defeated and forced to surrender the entire regions to Prussia and Austria.  Ironically, in 1920, the people of northern Schleswig voted to rejoin Denmark.

ADOPTION OF THE REMINGTON

  The Danes were without an effective breech loader in their conflict with Prussia during the War of 1864, and were both outclassed and outgunned by the Prussian forces armed with the breech-loading Dreyse rifles.  After their defeat, and following an American tour by members of the Danish Ordnance Commission which included a visit to Remington, the Danes placed an order for 20,000 of the new m/1867 rifles in April of 1867.  This was important to the Remington firm, as it was Remington’s first major order of rifles since the American Civil War and Remington’s first major overseas contract.  In August of that same year Denmark ordered an additional 10,000 rifles and 1,800 carbines, and in May of the following year, 1868, placed yet another order for 10,000 more of the m/1867 rifles.  In addition to these orders for Remington-manufactured rifles, the Danes (as would the Norwegians and Swedes soon thereafter) also secured the rights to manufacture the Remington design in Denmark at the Copenhagen arsenal, which they did in a quantity equal to the orders from Remington.   

 

   Original, Remington-built m/1867 Danish rifles were supplied with American walnut stock, color case-hardened receivers and blued barrels.

 

   The Danish model initially utilized an 11.44 rimfire cartridge.  The choice of this caliber, in lieu of the much more common ~ 12mm (.50 caliber) in vogue in the rest of the world in these years, resulted from a visit to US arms manufacturers, including Remington, of a Danish representative authorized to contract for the purchase of new rifles and to choose the caliber based on experiments then being undertaken by the US Army’s Ordnance Department.  (Of note, these experiments would later lead to the adoption of the American .45-70, a cartridge quite similar to the Danish cartridge actually adopted.)

 

  The initial rimfire cartridge was later updated to a longer centerfire cartridge in 1896, and the rifle remained in service well into the smokeless era.  However, with the adoption of the 8mm Krag-Jørgensen in 1889, the need to update or abandon the Remington became acute.  In 1893 some Danish Remingtons were re-barreled to chamber 8mm Krag-Jorgensen cartridges.

 

   The orders of the Danish rifles, coupled with orders for the Swedish rifles (and licensing of Denmark, Sweden and Norway for local production of rolling block rifles) paved the way for the eventual enormous successes of Remington in producing and licensing the rolling block rifle.

 

   After World War II a large quantity of these Danish Remington rifles were sold surplus to the US.  Large quantities were misleadingly sold as chambered for the US .45‑70 Government cartridge, which the Danish round closely resembles, but the two are not interchangeable. (see the discussion in the CARTRIDGE section, below).

UPDATING THE M1867 DANISH SERIES RIFLES

Danish-built and Remington-built

   After the 1889 adoption and introduction of the smokeless powder Krag-Jorgensen repeaters, the Remingtons were freed up for alternative uses.  In 1896, the M/1867 rifles remaining in inventory were withdrawn from infantry service, converted to utilize the new 11.35x51R smokeless powder centerfire cartridge, and transferred to fortress and coast artillerymen.  At that time, a newly designed rear sight with an unusually long ladder was also fitted to the Danish-manufactured rifles giving them the readily distinguishable look common to virtually all Danish Remington rolling block rifles encountered by North American collectors and shooters today.


  The Danish-built rifles were converted to their new use merely by boring out the chamber to accept a longer, more powerful centerfire black powder cartridge otherwise identical dimensions and swapping out the rear sight ladder for a considerably longer recalibrated one, together with installing a new, long range volley site button on the left side of the center band.

  However the Remington-built Danish rifles were processed differently.  The Danes were of the opinion that the American made barrels where manufactured with lesser quality steel than the Danish-produced barrels, and that they would not be able to easily tolerate the more powerful Danish cartridge.  These converted Remington-built m/1867 rifles were instead re-designated m/1867/97 and issued with reduced charge cartridges. While the Danish built rifle cartridges contained a smokeless powder load of 2.3 grams of powder, the 1897 Remington cartridges, while produced with all of the same dimensions, was loaded with only 1.9 grams of powder.

  Also, due to being issued with a reduced load cartridge, the Remington m/1867/97 was issued with its original but altered rear sight leaf, rather than a new rear sight leaf as with the Danish-made M/1867/96. The original Remington rear sight calibrations on the leaf were crossed out and the sight was recalibrated on the base to 250 meters, and on the backside of the leaf from 150 to 1,500 meters.  This is versus the new Danish rear sight leaf calibrated from 200 to 2100 meters. 

All of the rifles just discussed retain their original serial numbers.  However, a number of Remington manufactured rifles had their barrels entirely replaced with a new, Danish-made barrel and these rifles were designated identically to the Danish ones, that is M/1867/96, even though Remington-made.  While the early Remington manufactured rifles were serially numbered up to 40,000, and the altered m/1867/97 rifles retain their original serial numbers, these newly Danish rebuilt Remington-made rifles were issued new serial numbers in the range of 71,552 and up.   Of interest, this is exactly the history of the M1867 Swiss Peabody rifles, many of which had their American (Providence Tool Company) barrels later replaced by Swiss-manufactured barrels and re-serially-numbered after they had been in Swiss service for some time, being re-designated M1867/77 Swiss Peabodys.

 

   Nomenclature:  All-original Danish Remington rifles, both Remington-built and Danish-built (both rare!), are designated m/1867 Danish infantry rifles (Dansk Remington bagladeriffel model 1867 bagladeriffel = breechloader)

Updated Danish rifles with new sight ladders and long-range button on the center band are “m/1867/96.”

IMG_2930.JPG
IMG_2924.JPG

Updated Remington-built rifles which have been rebarreled with Danish barrels (serial numbers 71,000+) and fitted with the fortress rear sight ladder are also “m/1867/96.

IMG_5090.JPG
IMG_5091.JPG
IMG_6365.JPG

Updated Remington-built rifles, retaining their original barrels (serial numbers below 40,000) but with their rear sight graduations crossed out and new graduations on the right base and back of the ladder, are denominated “m/1867/97.” 

IMG_8752.JPG
No Crown = unconverted.JPG
IMG_8742.JPG
IMG_8743.JPG
Backside of M1867-97 Rem Danish_02.JPG
Backside of M1867-97 Rem Danish_01.JPG

   I have never seen a straight (unaltered to 1896 standard) m/1867 Danish Remington rifle, neither a Remington-built nor a Danish-built.  These may well have been scrapped in rather large numbers, especially the Remingtons (see special note at the very end of this webpage).  Even the Remington-built m/1867/97 rifles are quite scarce.

 

   Officially, the Danish Remington Rolling Block rifles were phased out of the coastal artillery at the end of January, 1911, but the Danish Army museum asserts that only in the late 1940s were the last M.1867/96 Coastal Artillery and Navy Fortress rifles replaced with M.89 [Krag-Jorgensen] carbines.

 

OPERATING MECHANISM

   The Danish Rolling Block model of 1867 is, in most all respects, a quintessential early Remington Rolling Block design.  Like all Remington rifles, the action locks by shoulders on the hammer body engaging the underside of the radial breech block.  One if its notable features, however, includes the provision for an automatic firing pin retractor built into the breech block which operates exactly like that of the later m1871 Spanish-built Remingtons.  The firing pin retractor extends out from the back of the breech block and is designed such that, as the breech block is opened, the retractor rides against the front of the hammer base and is pushed by the hammer base into, and flush with, the breech block, simultaneously camming the firing pin back.  Extraction of the spent case is accomplished by the early Remington sliding extractor fitted into the inner left face of the receiver, coupled with the breech block, withdrawing the spent case as the breech block is opened.  Ejection requires that the case be pulled clear of the chamber with the fingers.

IMG_2932.JPG
IMG_2933.JPG
IMG_2934.JPG

The firing pin retractor, and the face of the breech block showing provision for either rimfire or centerfire.

  When Denmark adopted the smokeless powder m/1867/96 11mm Skarp Gaværpatron centerfire cartridge,  a unique and effective modification of the breech block and substitution of new central-fire firing pin was made, which, by merely swapping firing pins, a very easy operation, allows the rifle to toggle between centerfire and rimfire use.  To accomplish this, the m/1867/96 Danish rifle breech blocks are drilled with an additional center hole in the face for use with centerfire cartridges, the original hole at the bottom of the face remaining for use with rimfire cartridges and a rimfire firing pin.  (The firing pins are not identical)

 

DISTINGUISHING CHARACTERISTICS

  The breechblock of all m1867 Remington rifles, both Remington-built and Danish-built, are of the earlier 1868 design with the curved “half-pipe” to facilitate hand-loading the cartridge.

IMG_2934.JPG

  The swapable firing pin breech block is unique to the Danish rifle, as is the design of the firing pin retractor which differs visually from that of the aforementioned Spanish rifle.  The retractor’s operation is likewise similar to the later firing pin retractor built into the breech blocks of the Spanish and M1870 Liége-made Uruguayan Rolling Block, but that latter rifle is modeled more closely on the Spanish than the Danish model.  Remington itself did not manufacture any Rolling Block rifles with breech block firing pin retractors other than for the Danish contract.

IMG_2933.JPG
IMG_2932.JPG

Breech block showing firing pin retractor.  This is the view “as fired.”  When the breech block is opened, the tab just behind the thumb lever will come in contact with the hammer edge and be forced into the breech block, camming the firing pin back into position, preventing its contact with the fresh cartridge’s primer when re-closed.

  Original, un-upgraded m/1867 Danish and Remington-built rifles, and the Remington-built m1867/97 rifles are all fitted with a rear sight who’s leaf pivots at the rear, as distinct from the upgraded m/1867/96 Danish and newly-barreled Remington rifles.

IMG_8728.JPG

The rear sight of an original Remington (and Danish) built M1867 Danish rifle

  The m/1867/96 Danish rifle conversions are readily identified by their extraordinarily long back sight leaf which, at 82 mm (3.25 in) is about a third again longer than other military Rolling Block rear sight and which pivots at the front of the sight base.  It is also fitted with a long-range auxiliary sighting system (volley sights) consisting of a notched extension to the left of the back sight slide that couples with a sighting pin on the left side of the middle barrel band, increasing the rifle’s effective range for use by the coastal artillerymen.

 

   The Danish rifles were also equipped with a windage adjustable front sight and a bayonet bar to support its m/1867 saber bayonet.

IMG_2409.JPG

The extended back sight with long range sighting notch on the left … looking closely you may see the stud on the left side of the center barrel band which serves as the front sight for long range sighting.  Ranges for long ranges sighting are marked on the front side of the sight ladder.

  All m/1867 Danish rifles have three spring-retained barrel bands and a nosecap with sling swivels beneath the center band and lower edge of the buttstock.  Cleaning rod is a completely conventional Remington style rod.

IMG_7733.JPG

The front sight blade is adjustable for windage.

  IF the rifle is Danish produced, then the most dispositive feature is the upper tang.  Where Remington patent information is usually found, Danish-made rifles are marked “KJØBENHAVNS TOIHUUS 18xx” (“Copenhagen Arsenal” and the date of manufacture). 

IMG_7745.JPG

Noticeable differences between the Danish rifles discussed here and the m/1867 Swedish Remington and m/1867 Norwegian Remington rifles:

 

  • A bore diameter of 11.44 for the Danish, and 12.17 for the Swedish/Norwegian, with barrel rifling of five lands and more twist.

  • The rear sling swivel of the Danish rifle is attached to the buttstock instead of to the trigger guard.

  • Danish rifles are marked with the Danish crown on the left side of receiver, block, hammer, frontstock, buttstock and all three barrel bands.  Swedish/Norwegian rifles are not so marked.

  • The Danish rifle was issued only with a sword bayonet (the 1867 Danish Sword bayonet with yataghan blade), never for use of a socket bayonet, and thus M1867 Danish Remington rifles are all fitted with a full length bayonet bar and lug on the right side of the barrel.

 

MARKINGS

  The 40,000 first run Remington-made Danish rifles are marked with Remington patent information stamped on the upper tang.  The two line patent declaration of the early Rolling Block rifles reads “REMINGTONS ILION  N.Y.U.S.A.” on the upper line, with “PAT. MAY 3D NOV. 15TH 1864 APRIL 17TH 1866” beneath.

 

   Remington manufactured rifles also carry a small crown on the left side of the receiver, crown on the hammer and breech block, serial number and crown on the left barrel flat, but no crown on top of the barrel unless the rifle has been re-barreled by the Danes, in which case it will have a crown next to the serial number and on top of the barrel at the receiver.  These crowns are also found on the barrel bands, rear sight base and sometimes the top of the buttplate.  The serial number also appears along the bottom edge of the buttstock. 

 

   Serial numbers of the original Remington production run are numbered consecutively from 1 to 40,000.  The Danish produced rifles are numbered consecutively from 40,001 up to 71,551.  The m/1867/96 conversions of the Remington-built rifles are re-serialized from 71,552 on up.

IMG_8752.JPG
IMG_7745.JPG

LEFT: Tang markings of a Remington made m/1867 Danish Remington rolling Block rifle. RIGHT:  Danish made rifle (Kjøbenhaven Toihuus = Copenhagen Armory).  The 1879 at the end is the year of manufacture.

  The markings on the Danish-made rifles include all of the crowns found on Remington-made rifles, serial number and crown on the left barrel flat, serial number on the bottom edge of the buttstock, but also include on the left receiver flat the monarch’s cypher of King Christian IX , who reigned from 1813-1906.  This cypher consists of a script “C” within “R” (Regina Christian) and a tiny “IX” over “M-1867.”  The right receiver wall is generally bare.

IMG_7736.JPG

Left side of a Danish-manufactured m/1867, showing Monarch’s cipher and model designation.  This is not the year of manufacture, which, for Danish rifles, appears on the rifle’s tang (see previous pic)

SPECIFICATIONS, STATISTICS & DATA

Overall Length:  1,280 mm (50.4 in)

Barrel Length:  907 mm (35.7 in)

Weight, empty:  4.1 Kg (9.25 lbs)

Rifling:  5-groove; RH, concentric

Sight:  A conventional Remington pattern consisting of a ramp-and-leaf with slider, graduated to 2000 alen (1,373 yds).  The m/1867/96 converted coastal artillery rifles (those almost universally encountered in North America) were fitted with new back sights ranged from 200 to 2,100 m (220 to 2,295 yds)

 

SHORT RIFLES, CARBINES & SPECIAL VERSIONS

  Remington delivered the first run of 1,800 carbines to Denmark in 1868.  Thereafter, with domestic production beginning in 1868, Kronborg in Helsingør manufactured an additional 1,600 carbines for the Danish Engineers and Cavalry reserve.

m/1867 Carbine for Cavalry, Artillery and Engineers  (Karabinen for rytter, artilleri og ingeniør, m/1867)

   Introduced concurrently with the long rifles, there were two distinct versions of carbines, issued to cavalry, artillery, engineers and even the navy, which acquired unmodified carbines from the army which are identical to the engineer version.  All are shortened m/1867 patterns with an additionally shortened forestock.  They mount a single spring-retained barrel band whose spring is located directly beneath the forestock, and not to the side as are the rifle’s band retainer springs.  The first 1,800 of these carbines were supplied by Remington and are Remington-marked on the tang like the rifles, and approximately 5,200 were produced by Geværfabrik Kjøbenhaven between 1870 and 1908!  These latter carbines are marked similarly to the rifles with crown and “M-1867” on the left side of the receiver and Københavns Tøjhus on the tang.  Total production was approximately 7,000.

 

  About 3,078 of the Army engineer-type carbines were delivered to the Danish navy but both army and navy carbines were serially numbered consecutively and not distinct to either branch.

 

   The name and year of manufacture of the factory are stated on the tang. There are two manufacturer names: "Kronborg Geværfabrik" and "Kjøbenhavns Tøihuus".   In 1870-71, a small number of carbines were assembled at Tøjhuset from parts that had been produced at the shuttered Kronborg Rifle Factory. Some of these have no markings on the tang which are merely smooth.

Screenshot 2022-03-05 212016.png
Screenshot 2022-03-05 212059.png
Screenshot 2022-03-05 212038.png

  Note that at lease some Danish Carbines are manufactured WITHOUT the uniquely Danish version of firing pin retractors.  We have not been able to confirm if all Danish carbines were manufactured this way or only if some were.

Specifications of the m/1867 Danish Carbine

Overall Length:  910 mm (35.8 in)

Barrel Length:  534 mm (21 in)

Weight, empty:  3.1 Kg (6 lbs 13 oz)

Rifling:  5-groove; RH, concentric

Rear Sight:  Conventional ramp and leaf sight calibrated from 300 to 600 alen with the leaf down, 700 to 1500 alen with leaf raised. 

m/1867 Cavalry Carbine (Karabinen for rytter, m/1867)

  The front sight of the original type is equipped with a unique front sight protector fitted to the muzzle.  The carbine is without sling swivels but has a sling bar and ring on the left side of the breech.  It does not mount a bayonet.

Screenshot 2022-03-05 212907.png
Screenshot 2022-03-05 212938.png

The m1867 Cavalry version carbine is fitted with a unique front sight protector.  Photos Credit: https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_gevar_view.php?editid1=86

m/1867 Engineer Carbine (Ingeniørkarabin m/1867)

  The Engineer carbine is identical to the Navy carbine. The two types were produced in a consecutive number sequence and distributed randomly between the two branches without regard to numbering.

A51D5BC10E46AD2A0184F171EF007596.jfif
4F57E74F3FF137C55B78C4EA597E07AE.jfif
37954023A51D9C17B3F4AAF068CEC853.jfif

  Danish sources indicate that in 1896, 1,950 m/1867 cavalry carbines were converted to engineer carbines (Ingeniørkarabin m/1867/96) but I have no additional information.

m/1867/96 Cavalry Carbine (Rytterkarabin m/1867/96)

   This was actually an 1897 conversion of the m/1867 Carbine for cavalry service pending final development of a Krag-type carbine.  Like the m/1867 Carbine, sling swivels are mounted on the underside of the buttstock and beneath the single barrel band.  The back-sight leaf is hindged at the back of the base and was apparently re-graduated to 1,500 alen (1,030 yd) to take into account of utilizing the new center-fire smokeless 11mm cartridge, but is otherwise the same as the original pattern.

 

   In 1905 approximately 2,600 remaining cavalry carbines were modified, receiving a new buttstock with the swivel on the left side.  These are sometimes referred to by collectors as the m1867/96/05, but this designation is only to differentiate these carbines for collectors, and was never official Danish nomenclature.

 

   The bar and sling ring previously mounted to the left side of the receiver on cavalry carbines was no longer needed.  To assist with carrying the carbine while horse mounted, the upper swivel was moved to a collar on the barrel and the lower sling swivel was moved from the bottom of the buttstock to the left side of the receiver.  A particular point of interest is its distinctive butt-comb magazine with a hinged aluminum lid holding 10 rounds vertically into the stock.  In addition to those 10 rounds, cartridges could also be stored in a “quick-loader” box which was carried on the back of the waist belt and could be quickly removed and mounted on a stud fitted to the right side of the forestock just ahead of the receiver.

 

  Many of the Remington manufactured cavalry carbines had their barrels replaced with a Danish-made one, however distinct from the Remington rifles, the carbines retained their original serial numbers and were not issued new serial numbers.

 

   This series of carbines remained in service until replaced by the Krag-Jørgensen m/89 Rytterkarabin in 1914.

m1867-96 carbine showing quick-loader stud on right forestock.jpg
Screenshot 2022-03-05 212930.png

   Note:  These carbines issued to the Engineers were fitted with an aluminum buttplate.  The same carbines issued to cavalry units had no buttplate at all!

727A5A31F90654CB3500302568513DEE.jfif
mfhandler.jfif
mfhandler (1).jfif

NOTE regarding the m/1867/93 Navy Short Rifle (Flådens Bagladeriffel m/1867/93)

   These short rifles were converted from m/1867 rifles, but chambered for the 8x58R Krag smokeless cartridge, and therefor will not be discussed in this body of work.  However, an example of this scarce rifle and its specifications can be found at:  https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_gevar_view.php?editid1=96&

 

BAYONET

m/1867 Saber Bayonet

  The M1867 sword bayonet came with a leather scabbard with a steel cape(the protective cover on the bottom of the scabbard).  In 1885, the locking stud was replaced with a stud made of steel instead of iron.  There are two different variations one with an internal spring for a locking stud and one with an external blade spring for the locking stud.  The internal spring is the later design and was implemented in 1884.  In 1885 the locking stud was modified to be made of steel.  (information credit to : Danish bayonets (holmback.se)

IMG_4130.JPG
IMG_4126.JPG
IMG_4132.JPG
IMG_4134.JPG
m1867_3 (1).jpg
m1867_2.jpg

  The Bayonet bar and tenon fixed to the right of the barrel.  The bayonet mounts on the right side with its blade horizontal to the ground.

Screenshot 2022-03-06 204424.png
Screenshot 2022-03-06 204407.png
 

CARTRIDGE

(m/1867/ 11mm Skarp Gaværpatron)

   Having committed to acquiring a modern metallic cartridge breechloader, the front-runner for the Danes then being the American Peabody, all of which at the time were produced chambering a rimfire cartridge and the purchase of which the Danish government had already approved in 1867, the Danes purchased in both 1866 and again in 1867 a significant amount of cartridge making machinery from the Ordinance Department of the United States government.  This would have been in anticipation of purchasing and receiving Peabody rifles.  Since these American Civil War surplus machines would have been designed for the production of substantial numbers of Rimfire cartridges, like the Swedes and Norwegians, the Danes were substantially committed to the rimfire cartridge.  Thus, when an actual purchase decision was made to adopted the m/1867 Remington rifle, the concurrent order was that these rifles chamber a rimfire cartridge rather than the cutting edge, which would have been the Boxer design adapted to the M1866 British Snider and M1866 American Springfield.  

 

   This series rifles utilized three different cartridges during its service life.  The first was the m/1867 11.44 mm Danish Remington Rimfire, aka 11.4x42R.  This black powder rimfire cartridge consisted of a rimmed copper case loaded with 3.90 grams (60 grains) of black powder.  It was topped by an internally lubricated conical 25 gram (386 grain) lead bullet developing a muzzle velocity of about 380 m/s (1,230 fps).

 

  After the 1896 conversion of most all Danish rifles, the now converted Danish rifles chamber the 1896 11.35 mm Danish Centerfire cartridge, which for reasons unknown is also commonly known as the 11.7x51R.  This cartridge is very similar to the .45‑70 US Government cartridge, although a bit shorter and with a slightly larger base. 

 

   While the Danish-built m/1867/96 rifle cartridges contained a smokeless powder load of 2.3 grams of powder, the m/186797 Remington cartridges, while maintaining all of the same dimensions, were loaded with only 1.9* grams of powder.  The Remington cartridge was differentiated via a headstamp mark consisting of a line/chisel stroke across the diameter of the head (see photo below).

 

   The cartridge for the m/1867/96 carbines was a further reduced load of 2.0 grams of smokeless powder.

 

* (Some sources indicate 2.4 grams for the Danish rifle cartridge and 2.1 grams for the Remington-built rifles)

79eecdb3-102f-43f6-8234-5e70e5e7aadf_fullsize.jpg
268bc067-8785-4324-a787-bada5627c27b_fullsize.jpg
CB-Cartridge Art.jpg
denmark-21.webp
denmark-11.webp

Specifics of the Danish Cartridges:

11.4x42R m/1867 Rimfire:

m/1867 Skarp Gaværpatron

Bullet diameter:  11.44mm  (.450 caliber)

Neck diameter:  12.26mm

Base diameter:  12.69mm

Rim diameter:  14.81mm

Case length:  40-42mm

Charge:  3.9 grams of Black Powder

Total length:  52.9mm

11.4x51R m/1867/96 Centerfire: 

m/1867/96 11mm Skarp Gaværpatron

Bullet diameter:  11.35mm

Neck diameter:  12.26mm

Base diameter:  12.69mm

Rim diameter:  14.81mm

Case length:  51.8mm

Total length: 62 to 68.5 mm depending on bullet

Charge:  Loaded with 2.3 grams of Smokeless Powder

11.4x51R m/1867/97 Centerfire Cartridge for Remington-built rifles: 

m/1867/97 11mm Skarp Gaværpatron

Bullet diameter:  11.4mm

Neck diameter:  12.26mm

Base diameter:  12.69mm

Rim diameter:  14.81mm

Case length:  51.8mm

Total length:  62 to 68.5 mm depending on bullet  

Total weight: Loaded with 1.9 grams of Smokeless Powder

While a bare American .45‑70 Government cartridge will function in the Danish rifle, it will expand marginally at the base.  Modern shooters will sometimes affix a layer of adhesive tape around the base of a .45-70 cartridge before its first firing to center the case in the chamber for controlled stretching during fire-forming.  But at 11.7x53R, the .45-70 cartridge is roughly 2mm longer than the Danish cartridge and, if the chamber has not been altered by throat elongation by re-boring (note that chambers have been so altered on many but not all Danish rifles imported into North America) then the case may overcrimp the bullet at the neck.  This is decidedly not a safe condition and No Danish Rifles should be shot until cases are carefully fitted to the rifle!  Disclaimer:  Better yet, never shoot these old rifles.

MANUFACTURING DATA

  These arms were manufactured initially by E. Remington & Sons, Ilion, New York, between 1867 and 1870.  Remington was able to deliver the first 30,000 rifles and 1,800 carbines to Denmark in 1868 alone.  In the end, the Remington orders produced 40,537 rifles and 1,800 carbines.

 

   Beginning in 1868, Kronborg in Helsingør manufactured the first Danish-produced Remington pattern arms, 500 Engineer carbines built before full production began in Copenhagen.  Kronborg built a total of 1,600 carbines for Danish forces.  

  

   Roughly 31,551 additional rifles were subsequently manufactured by Geværfabrik Kjøbenhaven between 1870 and 1888 (these are marked Københavns Tøjhus), such that a total production of somewhere near 80,000 of the m/1867 Danish rifle series, including 7,040 carbines of all varieties were eventually produced.

Downloaded from the internet 2/23/2022

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?423563-New-to-me-Danish-Rolling-Block

[Note:  Edited for minor spelling/grammar corrections]

Author:  User 17nut   [A Dane, living in Denmark!]

 

Here is a resume I wrote some time ago to address the confusion about chamber length:

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

  The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 52grains in 1867 and changed to 60 grains of BP behind a 385 grain [bullet].


  Denmark ordered 20000 rifles from Remington to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels [soon enough].
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines were set up and each of them had a master gunsmith which was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factory’s master controller. This becomes important later!


  All is well and from 1867 to 1878, 78,500 RB’s are manufactured.


  In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernize the RBs. In 1896 they were officially converted to smokeless, centerfire [cartridges] and jacketed bullets.


  And now comes problems in heaps falling down on the arsenal.  Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So all rifles falling out of new specs were ”scrapped” to the fire pit for badly offsized bores. A LARGE long throat was devised to size the new jacketed bullets (Cupper-Nickel) for the black powder bores.
 

   That is why most Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R [is thought to] exist.

  [T]he development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only 100 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground down hammer. Most/all were scrapped so the likelihood of hundreds of them popping up in the US is nil.

  When conversion was done in 1895 some metallurgic tests were made on barrel steel. It was found that the Sheffield steel barrels used by Remington were as originally specified, but not as strong as the German Witten steel used in the Danish made rifles. That means the Remingtons are rated at a max. of 1200bar~17,4kpsi and the Danish ones marked ”Kjøbenhavns Tøihuus” are rated at a max. of 1600bar~23.2kpsi. In short do not use [Springfield] Trapdoor loads even if full length 45-70 (or longer) brass fits your chamber!

  I know some of the most avid gun collectors in Denmark and  no one has ever seen a Remington in the original 11,7x56R chambering, so again just because your rifle might chamber a 45-90 case, does not make it a 11,7x56R but simply a standard 11,7x51R with a long throat (which they all have!)

UTILIZATION BY OTHER COUNTRIES

The m/1867 Danish Remington Rolling Block was utilized militarily only by Denmark. 

 

  However, after withdrawal from military service many rifles were sent to Greenland for use as hunting rifles. A new centerfire cartridge was developed utilizing the new 8mm M1889 Krag-Jorgensen case (8x58R) by the simple expedient of cutting the case just below the shoulder so that it remains a basically straight-walled case, but a fraction shorter than 40mm the military cartridge, the new cartridge popularly known as the “Greenland cartridge”.  Rifles utilizing the Greenland Cartridge were used into the mid 1960’s.

PREDECESSOR & FOLLOW-ON RIFLES

Predecessor Rifle(s):   M1848/54/65 Snider (17x28R)

IMG_1389.JPG
IMG_1340.JPG

Follow-On Rifle(s):   M1889 Krag-Jørgensen (8mm smokeless)

21851_r.jpeg

REFERENCES

Page built June 8, 1997
Revised February 1, 1999
Added pics & text January 6, 2001

Updated: Oct 29, 2021

Updated: Mar 6, 2022