M1855/67 & M1860-67 Lund and Landmark (two different conversions):


(Photos on this page were graciously provided by David Amsbury)

GENERALLY:  Please see the EXTENSIVE letter below!!

The following from: Rifles of the World , John Walter, DBI Books, 1993.   "The first Norwegian breech-loader was the Chamber-loading Rifle (Kammerladningsgevcer), adopted in 1842. The breech-block, containing the chamber, was pivoted at the rear; a side lever, mounted on an eccentric cam, opened the action and provided a reasonably effectual breech-seal when the action was shut. An under-hammer ap lock originally lay ahead of the trigger guard. After the Norwegian army had adopted the Remington Rolling Block, in 1867, many old chamber-loaders were altered to fire the same rimfire cartridge. Conversions, depending on pattern, were known as Landmark's and Lund's.

    M1855-67 infantry rifle:  This 18-bore rifle-musket was converted from the 1855-pattern cap lock, which accepted a triangular-blade M/1846 socket bayonet. About 4,000 guns had been made in 1855-9, Lund conversions were applied to surviving rifles in the late 1860s, sights being altered to rocking patterns graduated to 800 alen. Virtually all M1855-67 rifles had gone by the mid 1870s.

    M1860-67 rifle-musket:  This was originally an 11.77mm-calibre derivative of the M1855 with hexagonal Whitworth-type rifling. The back sight was a simple two-leaf rocking pattern, replaced by a tangent-leaf on guns issued to marksmen. The standard 1846-type socket bayonet was retained. About 8,500 M1860 rifle-muskets had been made in 1860-7, issue beginning in 1862; 1,600 M1860-67 rifle-muskets were made specifically for the 12.17mm rimfire Remington cartridge in 1868-70, while thousands of old guns were being converted. After 1879, guns were all classified as "12mm Lund's Rifle-musket M/1867", regardless of pattern.

    M1860-67 short rifle:  Basically an M1860 rifle musket with two bands instead of three, this accepted a sword bayonet. Military production amounted to about 3,200 guns in 1862-6. Lund conversions were undertaken in the late 1860s, the new rocking sight being graduated to 900 alen. After 1879, the M1860-67 conversions were classified as "12mm Lund's Rifle M/1867"."

Rifles of the World , John Walter, DBI Books, 1993
 

PHOTOS:  From Mr. Amsbury:  "Here are photos I obtained of a Norwegian Kammerlader ("chamber loader") with Lund conversion.  It's on a carbine, but the action is the same as the rifle."

DISTINGUISHING CHARECTERISTICS:  These rifles seem to be in a class ALL by themselves!!!   :)

FURTHER READINGS:   See the extensive letter below!!
 


 


 
 

MORE M1855/67 & M1860-67 Lund (link):
 
 
 


 

Subj:  Norwegian Remington M1867 is no conversion
Date: 02-01-17 16:24:28 EST
From: trond@wikborg.com (Trond Wikborg)
To: KeithDoyon@MilitaryRifles(.)com

Dear Keith,

It seems as if some people already have made links to my site www.geocities.com/trondwikborg/ - so who cares.... Please feel free to make a link if you feel for it.

I'm afraid I didn't read your text on the Norwegian arms properly before now and there are some things that should have been corrected.

As I understand:  "M1855-67 infantry rifle:  This 18-bore rifle-musket was converted from the 1855-pattern cap lock, which accepted a triangular-blade M/1846 socket bayonet. About 4,000 guns had been made in 1855-9, Lund conversions were applied to surviving rifles in the late 1860s, sights being altered to rocking patterns graduated to 800 alen. Virtually all M1855-67 rifles had gone by the mid 1870s."   This idicates that the old 18-bore muskets were converted to Lund, they were not, there were assembled/built a very small number in 1867/68, probably of old parts.

Please find a text I wrote on kammerladere for my site enclosed and just use anything you might find usefull:

Army - original models

There were only made 400 of these in total - all for the army, 100 at Liege and 300 at Kongsberg. Next model out was the M1846 with some minor alterations to the mechanism.   Appr. 3000 of the M1846 was made at Kongsberg, numbered 1-3000. 1500 were made at A. Francotte in Liege and another 1500 at Crause in Hertzberg - both with serial numbers starting from 1. These two models originally had the same rear sight as the one down to the left on my index page.

M1849 is again slightly modified in the mechanism and got a new rear sight, this also placed behind the breech block. Kongsberg made some 6500 of this one, Liege and Hertzberg 2000 each - and again all three producers started their numbers from 1.

A "new" M1855 was made with the rear sights moved and fixed with a ring to the barrel. Kongsberg made some 4000 of these, numbers being added on the numbers from M1846. The old M1842, M1846 and M1849 also had their rear sights changed according to this and an army version of the Kammerlader with the original rear sight is extremely difficult (virtually impossible) to find.

In 1859 there was a new and shorter version with only two brass bands holding the barrel. There were only made some 1300 of this, but it still is the most common of all the Kammerladere as very many the M1855-versions were shortened down some 16 cm as well. The M1855 got a sword bayonet.

In 1860 Kongsberg started making a long kammerlader again, identical to the M1855, but lighter with a 11,77 mm calibre. There were made close to 12 000 of this one. There was also a shorter version of this, like the M1859, for a sword bayonet. I am not aware of how many were made of this model, but the bayonet is virtually the same as for the Norwegian Remington, where the numbers start at 8745. I doubt there were made this many of the short M1860 as it is a lot harder to find than its "big brother", a good guess would be some 3000.

Both the two last mentioned were also made in civilian versions with iron bands instead of brass. I've never been interested in mass produced civilian arms and don't know how many were made. An educated guess is that the bayonet numbers follow the rifles and that whatever "hole" there is in the bayonet number range, this is the amount of civilian guns made. An uneducated guess would probably be some 5 000.

There were also made a total of two kammerlader percussion carbines - the M1857, M1862, the last one also as a cavalry version.

Navy - original model(s)

The Norwegian navy did their own things - always different from the army.  It was always real good at keeping secrets, probably even from themselves.  As far as I know, nobody really knows what models and how many of the kammerladere the Navy had - well minimum two, possibly three.

The first is a three band version almost identical to the M1842, except that it has the same length as the M1859 (and that the receiver for the breech arm is some what different)! It is not logical that it then was made as late as in 1848 (then it should have had the M1846 mechanism), but I've never seen an older date on one. This is really also the only kammerlader to be found with the original rear sight (I've seen three or four in 35 years). There were possibly only made 50 of this model (I have no 50). I call it a M1848.

In the mid 1850's there came a slightly different model. They look very much the same, but the handle on the cock is the same with the armies M1849 and it had a new, original rear sight (not a conversion from the old) - skibakke sikte (the skiing hill sight). I've had three of these, no 68, 332 and one I believe was appr. 450. As far as I can remember, I've never seen this rifle dated earlier than 1854, so I call it a M1854. Reality is that I don't even know if the navy looked upon this as a model change or if the M1848 ever even was approved. Strange as it might seem, neither of these are impossible getting hold of - we are a small country.

The M1860 is almost identical to the short two band version of army's M1860, with three minor excerptions. The navy had to be different, so they adopted the three edged bayonet from the long army M1860 instead of the sword bayonet from the short one. The two other differences are that the rear sight is rather primitive compared to the army's version and that the modification on the breech handle is partly still there. Why to something simple, when you can do it navy!

Army cartridge conversion

The army settled for a Lund's design in converting the kammerladere from percussion to metal cartridge in 1867.

There was made a very limited series, probably of leftovers, as 16,8 mm Lunds rifles in 1867/68.  These are, as far as I know, the only 16,8 mm Lunds ever made and none of the army percussion versions seem ever to have been converted.

Both the long and the short M1860 were converted according to Lund's patent and there are very extremely military M1860's left in percussion.

With the exception of the M1857 kammerlader carbine, all the carbines were converted to Lund.

Navy cartridge conversion

It seems as if the navy yet another time had to do things their own way and they settled for the Landmark design for converting the kammerladere to cartridge guns. While the army only converted their M1860's, the navy seemed to have converted all kammerladere except for the few M1848.
....

TW
 


 


 

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Revised October 24, 1999
Revised December 12, 1999
Revised January 29, 2002